INTERVIEWER: Welcome back to the channel. Today we’re asking one of the oldest questions there is: did someone make this universe, or did it just happen? My guest is Dr. Zia H. Shah. He is a physician, board-certified in internal medicine, pulmonary disease and sleep medicine, and he writes about science, philosophy and the Quran at thequran.love. Dr. Shah, welcome.

DR. SHAH: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[0:30 — WHY A PHYSICIAN?]

INTERVIEWER: Let’s start with the obvious question. You treat lungs and sleep disorders. Why is a doctor talking about cosmology?

DR. SHAH: Because medicine trains you to reason from evidence. A patient comes in with a set of findings. I list the possible causes and rule them out one by one until the best explanation is left. thequran That method doesn’t change when the patient is the universe. And over the last fifty years, physics has turned up a finding so striking that it needs that kind of careful diagnosis. Scientists call it the fine-tuning of the universe. thequran I’ve come to see it as the best scientific support for what the Quran has always said, that Allah is the Creator, and that He made the universe with measure and purpose.

[1:30 — WHAT IS FINE-TUNING?]

INTERVIEWER: So what does “fine-tuning” actually mean, in plain language?

DR. SHAH: Picture a huge sound-mixing board in a recording studio, with dozens of dials. goodreads Each dial is one of the basic numbers of physics: the strength of gravity, the charge of the electron, the mass of the proton, the energy of empty space. thequran A 2006 study by Max Tegmark, Martin Rees and their colleagues counted thirty-one of these basic numbers that particle physics and cosmology need, and here’s the key point: our theories don’t tell us why they have the values they do. We measure them; we cannot derive them. thequran What physicists discovered is that if you turn almost any of these dials even a little, you don’t get a slightly different universe. You get no stars, no carbon, no chemistry, and nobody to look up at the sky. thequranthequran

The physicist Brian Greene put it this way: “Even a small change of the known values of those numbers would cause the world as we know it to disappear.” And the Astronomer Royal, Sir Martin Rees, summed it up in one line: “Wherever physicists look, they see examples of fine tuning.” goodreads +2

INTERVIEWER: Is this a fringe idea, or do mainstream scientists accept it?

DR. SHAH: It’s mainstream, and that’s what makes it so powerful. In 2012 the astrophysicist Luke Barnes published a major review of the evidence in the Publications of the Astronomical Society of Australia, and with his colleague Geraint Lewis he tested these claims against the critics in a book called A Fortunate Universe. Their conclusion is that the fundamental properties of our universe really do appear fine-tuned for life. Even the critics concede the data. thequran Sean Carroll, an atheist physicist and one of the sharpest critics of theism, called fine-tuning “the best argument that the theists have when it comes to cosmology.” So the debate today is not about whether the dials are finely set. It’s about why. thequranthequran

[3:30 — THE MOST STRIKING EXAMPLES]

INTERVIEWER: Walk us through some of those dials. What are the most striking examples?

DR. SHAH: Let me start with gravity. Gravity is by far the weakest of the forces. thequran Between two protons, the electrical force is about ten to the thirty-sixth power stronger than gravity. That’s a one followed by thirty-six zeros. Martin Rees made this one of his “Just Six Numbers.” thequran If gravity were much stronger, stars would burn through their fuel too quickly, living fast and dying young before planets or life could form. If it were much weaker, matter might never gather into stars at all, and you’d have a cold, dark universe. thequran +2

INTERVIEWER: And the forces inside the atom?

DR. SHAH: The strong nuclear force holds the nucleus together. Rees captures it in a number called epsilon: 0.007, the fraction of mass that turns into energy when hydrogen fuses into helium inside a star. His verdict is blunt: “If ε were 0.006 or 0.008, we could not exist.” thequran Make the strong force a little weaker and the heavier elements, like carbon and oxygen, can’t be built. Make it a little stronger and much of the hydrogen in the early universe gets fused away, leaving less fuel for long-lived stars like our sun, and less hydrogen for water. thequranthequran

Then there is the neutron, which is just slightly heavier than the proton, by 1.293 million electron volts according to the 2022 CODATA values from the U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology. Paul Davies points out that if it were the other way around, protons would have decayed shortly after the Big Bang. No protons, no atoms, no chemistry, no life.

INTERVIEWER: You often mention carbon and Fred Hoyle. Why?

DR. SHAH: Because carbon is the backbone of every living cell, and it’s made inside stars. In 1953 the British astronomer Fred Hoyle realized that stars could only make carbon in useful amounts if the carbon nucleus had an energy level at just the right height. He predicted it, and experimenters at Caltech found it. thequran Hoyle was not a religious man. He was a lifelong skeptic. But decades later he wrote that “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics.” thequranthequran Now, in fairness, later studies suggest this particular margin is wider than first thought. I want to be honest about that. That’s why I lead with the strongest cases. thequranthequran

[7:00 — THE STRONGEST CASES]

INTERVIEWER: Which are those?

DR. SHAH: The first is the cosmological constant, the energy of empty space, which drives the accelerating expansion of the universe. When physicists calculated from quantum theory what this energy should be, they got a number about ten to the 120th power larger than what we actually observe. thequran It has been called “the worst theoretical prediction in the history of physics.” thequranthequran So nature somehow cancels almost all of it, to about 120 decimal places. thequran Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate and a lifelong atheist, said the value “does seem remarkably well adjusted in our favor.” Leonard Susskind, no friend of design, wrote that this precision is “most certainly no accident.” thequran If the value were much larger, space would have flown apart before a single galaxy could form. thequran If it were negative and large, the universe would have collapsed back on itself before life could arise. We live in a Goldilocks zone: positive, but extraordinarily small. thequran

INTERVIEWER: And the second?

DR. SHAH: The beginning of the universe itself. Our universe started in an extraordinarily ordered, low-entropy state. Entropy is basically disorder. That early order is why time has a direction, and why stars can burn at all. Sir Roger Penrose, the Nobel laureate mathematician, calculated how special that beginning was. thequran His answer is one part in ten to the power of ten to the 123rd. thequranthequran

INTERVIEWER: Help us picture that number.

DR. SHAH: Ten to the 123rd is a one followed by 123 zeros. Penrose’s number is a one followed by ten to the 123rd zeros. Suppose you wrote one zero on every proton, neutron and electron in the observable universe, about ten to the eightieth particles. You still couldn’t write the number out. Penrose used a vivid image: a Creator with a pin, aiming at the space of all possible universes. thequran He said “the Creator’s aim must have been” accurate to that precision. To be fair, Penrose is not a theist; “Creator” was a figure of speech for him. thequranthequran But I think the figure of speech tells us a lot. thequran

INTERVIEWER: Anything about the expansion of the universe?

DR. SHAH: Yes. The physicist Alan Guth notes that one second after the Big Bang, the expansion rate and the density had to match to about one part in ten to the fifteenth. thequran Stephen Hawking said that if the rate had been smaller “by even one part in a hundred thousand million million,” the universe would have recollapsed. thequran Traced back to the earliest instant, the Planck time, the balance is one part in ten to the sixtieth. thequran +2 A tiny bit faster and matter scatters too thinly to form galaxies. thequran A tiny bit slower and everything falls back in a crunch. Hawking summarized the whole picture this way: the values of these numbers “seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life.” thequranthequran

[10:30 — FROM EVIDENCE TO CREATOR]

INTERVIEWER: Okay. The numbers are finely set. How do you get from there to God?

DR. SHAH: The same way I get to a diagnosis. There are only a few possible explanations: physical necessity, chance, or design. goodreadsthequran Some add the multiverse as a fourth, and I’ll come to it. themuslimtimesthequran

Necessity says a future “theory of everything” will show the constants could not have been otherwise. But none of our best theories fixes these values; they are typed in by hand. And even if such a theory existed, you’d still ask why the only possible universe happens to be one that produces life. That doesn’t remove the coincidence; it moves it one level deeper. thequran

Chance, in a single universe, means we were lucky beyond any odds we’d accept anywhere else. The philosopher Robin Collins offers a picture: imagine a dartboard the size of the galaxy with a bull’s-eye one foot wide. A dart thrown blindly lands right in it. You don’t shrug that off. thequran

Then Collins makes the key point, and it’s the same logic we use in clinics and courtrooms. Fine-tuning is not surprising if God exists, because a wise and good Creator would have every reason to make a world with living, thinking, moral beings. It is enormously surprising if the universe is a single unguided accident. When an observation is expected on one hypothesis and wildly unexpected on another, it counts strongly for the first. thequranthequran

INTERVIEWER: You’ve written that “all roads lead to Rome.”

DR. SHAH: Yes, that’s the title of one of my essays: “All Roads Lead to Rome and All Arguments for God Lead to the Fine Tuning of Our Universe.” thequran The cosmological argument asks why there is a universe at all, and says it needs a cause beyond itself. The design argument asks why it is so ordered. The moral argument asks why it produces beings who answer to goodness. All three roads meet here, at fine-tuning, and they point to one destination: a necessary, wise and purposeful Creator. thequranthequran

[13:00 — THE QURAN AND THE FINE-TUNED UNIVERSE]

INTERVIEWER: Where does the Quran come in?

DR. SHAH: This is the part I love most. The Bible praises the heavens beautifully. But the Quran does something more. It gives an explicit, repeatable observational challenge. thequranthequran In chapter 67, verses 3 and 4, God says: “You do not see in the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency. So return your vision to the sky; do you see any breaks?” Then: “Return your vision twice again. Your vision will return to you humbled while it is fatigued.” thequranthequran

Think about that. Look, look again, and look again. That is the posture of modern cosmology. thequran For a century, astronomers and physicists have been returning their vision to the heavens with telescopes and particle colliders, and the deeper they look, the more exquisite order they find, not flaws. thequranthequran

INTERVIEWER: Are there other verses that speak to this?

DR. SHAH: Many. The Quran says, “He created each thing and determined it with precise determination,” chapter 25, verse 2. thequran And: “We have created everything according to a measure,” chapter 54, verse 49. thequran The Arabic word is qadar, or taqdir: measure, proportion, determination. I see it as the theological name for what physics calls fine-tuning. thequran I don’t say the verse is a list of physical constants. But it tells us the universe is measured, and science has now shown us how finely. thequran

In chapter 55, verse 7: “And the heaven He raised and imposed the balance.” Al-Mizan, the balance. thequran And in chapter 41, verse 53, God promises: “We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth.” I read fine-tuning as one of those signs in the horizons, revealed progressively, exactly as promised. thequranthequran

INTERVIEWER: What about the oneness of God?

DR. SHAH: Fine-tuning fits beautifully with Tawhid, the Oneness of God. The same laws hold across billions of light years, which suggests one Lawgiver, and the constants are finely balanced, which suggests one fine-tuner. The Quran says, in chapter 21, verse 22: “If there were gods beside Allah, then verily both the heavens and the earth would have been disordered.” thequranthequran And chapter 59, verse 24, names Him: “He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner; to Him belong the best names.” thequranthequran

[16:00 — THE OBJECTIONS]

INTERVIEWER: Let me push back. A skeptic says: “Of course the universe allows life. If it didn’t, we wouldn’t be here to notice.” That’s the anthropic principle.

DR. SHAH: That statement is true, but it’s not an explanation. Imagine fifty expert marksmen fire at you from close range, and every bullet misses. You wouldn’t say, “Naturally they missed; otherwise I wouldn’t be here to notice.” You’d ask who arranged for them to miss. Your survival is the very fact that needs explaining. thequran1000wordphilosophy

INTERVIEWER: What about “life could just take some other form”?

DR. SHAH: The catastrophes we’re talking about don’t just change Earth-like biology. They erase all complexity: no atoms other than hydrogen, or no stable atoms at all; universes that recollapse almost at once, or never form stars; or nothing but black holes. Barnes borrows a line from Richard Dawkins: however many ways there are of being alive, “there are vastly more ways of being dead.” Any kind of life needs stable structures and long-lived energy sources. thequranthequran

INTERVIEWER: And the big one: the multiverse. Maybe there are countless universes, and we’re just in the lucky one.

DR. SHAH: I take it seriously, and so do serious physicists. thequranthequran But notice four things. First, no one has observed another universe, and we may never be able to. thequranwhyarewehere Second, a machine that churns out universes needs its own finely set laws, so the fine-tuning is pushed back a step, not removed. thequran Third, it multiplies unseen universes without limit to avoid one Creator, which is a heavy price under Occam’s razor. thequran And fourth, look at the motive. The cosmologist Bernard Carr said it candidly: “If you don’t want God, you’d better have a multiverse.” thequran +4

And here’s the beautiful part for a Muslim. The very first chapter of the Quran calls God Rabb al-Alamin, the Lord of all the worlds. Worlds, plural. aljumuahhuggingface The great classical scholar Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, eight centuries ago, wrote that God has the power to create “a thousand thousand worlds” beyond this one. Wikipedia So if a multiverse exists, it doesn’t replace God. thequran It magnifies His creative power. A multiverse would still need an explanation: why is there a reality capable of generating universes at all? thequran +4

INTERVIEWER: Does fine-tuning prove God, then?

DR. SHAH: I want to claim no more than the evidence supports. thequran Fine-tuning doesn’t compel anyone to believe, and I think that’s how God wants it: faith should be a free choice. What it does is make design far more probable than blind chance. thequranthequran It opens a door. thequranthequran As the physicist Freeman Dyson put it, “the universe in some sense must have known that we were coming.” thequranblogspot

[19:00 — CLOSING]

INTERVIEWER: Last question. What do you want viewers to take away?

DR. SHAH: Go outside on a clear night, far from the city lights, and look up. You’re looking at the most carefully balanced thing anyone has ever studied. thequran Then remember the Quranic invitation: look again, do you see any flaw? Our search for flaws has only revealed deeper beauty. thequran And the Quran describes believers who reflect on the heavens and the earth and say, “Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly,” chapter 3, verse 191. thequran The question isn’t really whether the universe was tuned. It’s whether we will recognize the One who tuned it, and live with gratitude. thequran If you want to go deeper, all my articles on fine-tuning are at thequran.love.

INTERVIEWER: Dr. Zia Shah, thank you so much.

DR. SHAH: Thank you. It’s been a joy.